Transcript of McCain interview

McCain: ... we've been talking about the economy a lot. And I am convinced, and by the way we have five Nobel Laureates and 200, 300 economists who think that we have a viable proposal that has to do with job creation, that has to do with keeping taxes low, with health -- affordable and available health care, and to making sure that our economy can recover in a robust fashion. Spending in my view is the major contributor to a lot of the economic difficulties we have today. We have allowed spending to get completely out of control. The size of spending has increased by some 40 percent, the greatest increase in "discretionary spending." The greatest increase in size of government since the Great Society. And we therefore ran up deficits and even though revenue increased as a result of tax cuts, it had no -- could not keep up with the spending increases. The symbolic aspect of this of course and very important aspect of it is the corruption of out of control spending. I noticed there is a poll today that showed the approval rating for the first time ever in single digits, approval rating of Congress. I have not met the 9 percent lately that approve of Congress, so we are gridlocked, we are -- the housing bill up before the United States Senate, with the housing problem that we have today, which by the way I have some problems with that housing bill, but it's better than doing nothing, and the home ownership bill.

... two things Congress never misses, that's a pay raise and recesses, no matter what the situation is. So I'll be glad to talk to you about the economy and the economy and the economy, and home ownership and lower taxes and if you want somebody to raise taxes, I'm not your guy. I'm not your candidate. And I believe that raising taxes at this particular time in history could do very great damage.

Finally, I'd just like to say a word about -- I'll just stop there with saying we've got to restrain spending, we've got to restrain the growth of government, we have to keep taxes low and we can restore this economy and we can have a strong economy again. And a lot of it has to do with green technologies and achieving oil independence. We are watching probably the greatest transfer of wealth perhaps in history from the United States of America to the Middle East and other oil producing countries, $(400) or $500 billion. That has a dramatic and significant impact on our economy, on our foreign debts, on the whole -- everything that affects Americans. Lowest-income Americans are suffering the worst as a result of an increase in the cost of a barrel of oil because they drive the oldest cars and they usually have to drive the furthest. So it's a national security issue, it's an environmental issue, and it's an economic issue. And we have to be on the path to independence of imported oil, and I'll be glad to talk with you about how we do that with green technologies, with automobiles that will go 100 or 200 miles on a battery, on flex fuels, on hydrogen, on all of the innovation and technology that American can be motivated to move forward on. And it has to be a national mission that we have to embark on. With that I'd like to answer or any questions or comments you have.

Trib: How do we change the culture of energy dependence? How do we get people to buy into all these things that they are -- you know, it's a total culture change to talk about hydrogen, to talk about electric cars, to talk about all those things. How do you do it?

McCain: Well, a change to a large degree is taking place right now, people have stopped buying SUVs, people have stopped doing a lot of the things that consume energy. We are seeing this in places as diverse as Las Vegas where Americans decide they can't afford a plane ticket to go there. Most -- a lot of experts thought the economy of Las Vegas was immune to any economic ups and downs -- now, we are seeing that. We are seeing it at Disney World, we are seeing it across America in consumer spending. When you are paying $4 I was in Santa Barbara, California, and they are paying $5 for a gallon of gas, and you don't take that extra trip to the store, you don't buy the extra whatever it is, and it is affecting us. And it is affecting Americans' behavior. And we saw some of this in the '70s during the oil embargo. Some of us around here remember those days. And we are certainly seeing it in the marketplace as far as the sale of high energy consumption products. I think ... the culture is being changed by the impact in the pocketbook, but second of all we have to call Americans to the mission. It's ... something that Americans will respond to. When Jack Kennedy said we would go to the moon, we did it in less time than he predicted. And so ... I'm confident that unfortunately the economic circumstances are dictating it, but also Americans I think are ready, especially from the national security side.

Trib: Senator, you talked a lot about clean coal and using coal, and the other day Sen. Reid made a comment that coal was dirty and made us sick, and I wonder if you think you see that kind of attitude prevalent within the Senate, or what kind of comment do you have with something like that?

McCain: Well, there's no doubt that coal is a large emitter of what we don't like. But the fact is that we are developing clean coal technology, and America sits on the world's largest supply of coal, larger than Saudi Arabia's supply of oil. And so it's a matter of developing the technology. The technology is being developed. It's the cost of the technology and as every barrel of oil gets more and more expensive, then that gap narrows. Plus the advances, dramatic advances that are being made in clean coal technology. And that's why ... I've said we'll spend $2 billion a year on research and development from the federal government for pure research and development to spur the progress of clean coal technology. But look, I see this all the time: 'We can't go nuclear power because we can't store it and we can't reprocess it. We can't do coal because it's dirty.' We can't do this because there's a mindset in Washington, D.C. that we can't do anything. Well, we can. We can do these things. And we've ... overcome greater obstacles in the past. But that rhetoric ... is directly related to the 9 percent approval rating. Don't you think Americans would like to hear, 'Hey, we're sitting on the world's largest supply of energy in coal reserves and we are going to develop the technology that will ... make it clean and Americans will be able to have their energy needs supplied, which will increase by 20 percent in the next 10 years, I believe. ... But the demand for energy is going to increase dramatically in the future and we're going to have to supply it.

Trib: Senator, in an effort to curtail our dependence on oil, how much of a commitment will your administration make to mass transit and high speed rail?

McCain: Well, I will obviously commit to doing whatever is necessary to spur that, but I'd also like to point out to you, Brad, that one of the reasons why we haven't done more is because a lot of Americans don't want to use it. Now again, we are seeing a dramatic increase in the use of mass transit because of ... the reasons we just discussed. There's another aspect of this, too, very quickly, and that is that it has to do with passenger per mile. In other words, maglev and other new technologies have reduced that cost per passenger per mile. But I also have got to look you in the eye and tell you that there are Amtrak routes that will never be viable, OK? And we have a lot of work to do on the infrastructure, the tunnels, etc. But to subsidize a route that goes from Miami to Los Angeles is at 200 and some dollars per passenger, that's not what we want to do. That's not the answer. In my hometown of Phoenix, right now we are constructing mass transit. I believe that you will see in many cities and interconnecting cities, particularly in high population areas, you will see mass transit become a reality. They are talking about Dallas-Fort Worth to Houston. They are talking about all across the West Coast, you know, which once upon a time there was more of that. But also East Coast and connecting many of your hubs and all that. So all I can say is that I will commit to it, but a lot of it is going to have to be dictated by again the demand for that kind of transportation.

Trib: Senator, how are you going to fix Social Security? What's your plan? We've heard over and over the system is headed toward ...

McCain: Yeah, it is, it's broken and we ...

Trib: What specifically can you do?

McCain: I think you have to do two things. One, do a better job than has been done in the past of convincing people that it's broken. I think you can do that with one chart that shows how much money is going out and how much is coming in, and when there's more going out than coming in and when there's no money left. And so you have to get that sense of urgency to the American people. And the second thing, you've got to say, 'Look, everything is on the table, let's sit down at the table.' That's what Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill did in 1983. They sat down, they put everything on the table. A lot of people didn't like the solution they came up with, but when the liberal Democrat from Massachusetts and the conservative president from California said this is the fix for Social Security, it went through. So you've got to put everything on the table. And for me to stand here and say we've got to have this, this and this, all that does is set things up for a confrontation. What I'm saying is I'll sit down at a table with Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, John Boehner and Mitch McConnell, and we'll sit down and we'll work it out, and we'll walk out and I'll give them all the credit. I'll give them all the credit because we've got to fix it. But first -- so that's my plan for fixing it.

Trib: Well, if private retirement accounts are part of the mix, we saw the opposition to that already in 2005. So could that still be part of the mix?

McCain: Everything has got to be on the table. And let me just say again, I believe that young people ought to be able to invest money in accounts with their names on it. And that means young people voluntarily. Now it got all hung up the last time with all kinds of allegations and that became the focus of the debate, rather than the crisis that Social Security is in. So I'm saying everything is on the table. I favor the ability of young Americans to put money into, on a voluntary basis, into an account with their name on it. That's what I favor. Other people favor different things. You've got to sit down at the table and you've got to hammer it out.

Trib: Do you favor raising the cap?

McCain: Pardon me?

Trib: Do you favor raising the cap?

McCain: No, and I think by doing so, as Sen. Obama wants to do, you are obviously putting a very, very big increased tax on ... middle income Americans who filing jointly and in other ways will be paying a very big increase.

Trib: Senator, do Americans have a constitutional right to privacy?

McCain: Sure. Sure they do.

Trib: Does that -- how does that factor in, do you think, with your U.S. Supreme Court choices, and say Roe v. Wade?

McCain: I believe the most fundamental statement ever made that guides my life is that all of us are created equal and endowed (with) certain inalienable rights, among these are life ... liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And I believe that life applies to the unborn as well as the born. And I believe that's a fundamental pillar of my belief and what I think America is all about, so I will continue to advocate for the rights of the unborn.

Trib: But the decision Roe v. Wade was based on this right to privacy, it's ...

McCain: I didn't agree with Roe v. Wade. I didn't agree with the latest decision concerning the banning of the death penalty for a person who rapes a child. ... It's what the Supreme Court has decided, but I don't agree with them.

Trib: Senator, do platforms matter anymore? And if the party adopts a platform that comes out against the guest worker program, would you abide by that platform?

McCain: I can't get into hypotheticals as to what, you know, they would do or not do, but ... certainly I believe in a party platform. And I believe that the majority of Republicans believe that a guest worker program that has ... tamper-proof biometric documents and an ... electronic employer verification system, I think ... that a lot of Republicans would agree with such a proposal as long as it's comprehensive, that we secure our borders and we have a temporary worker program and address the issue of the 12 million people who are here illegally. I think healthy disagreement ... within a party is good ... as long we share common principles and values.

Trib: Would you feel bound by the platform if some of these revisions directly ...

McCain: I respect the platform of the party. I may not agree with every single aspect of it, ... but those discussions and deliberations within the party should be well known, well ventilated and well discussed. But obviously I run on the principles and philosophies underlying my party platform, whether I will agree with every crossed "t" or dotted "i" or not is something. But again, I think some disagreement in our party is healthy. We don't have to agree on everything. In fact, things are pretty boring as they are if we agreed on every single thing... . But I certainly support the values and principles of the party of Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan.

Trib: Senator, on the transportation issue again, more than half of the funding for Pennsylvania's transportation law that's in effect right now comes from tolling Interstate 80, but it needs FHA approval. Separately, the governor of Pennsylvania, Ed Rendell, wants to privatize the Pennsylvania Turnpike. How would your administration handle tolling of interstates and would you encourage or discourage privatizing major roads like the turnpike?

McCain: I'm a federalist, and the -- the essence of federalism is the state -- first the individual and then the states are responsible, and then finally the federal government has the authority to make these kinds of decisions. I will respect what the governor, the Legislature and the people of Pennsylvania decide. I will respect that. And if I had my way, you would take the majority of the gas tax money and keep it in the state of Pennsylvania so that the Legislature, the governor, the mayors, the city councils, the county supervisors, the state and local governments could decide to do with that money, rather than send it to Washington, wash it through the Appropriations Committee, spend $233 million on a bridge to an island in Alaska with 50 people on it, and all the other boondoggle pork barrel projects that have given Washington a bad name. ... Then listen, Duke Cunningham had a list of projects and a list of money he got for those projects. He's now residing in federal prison. So don't think that this earmarking, the worst example of which is probably in the highway bills and the transportation bills, isn't a corrupting influence. And by the way, my State of Arizona, ... we get back 86 cents for every dollar we send to Washington. That's not right, that's not right. The State of Alaska gets what $10, or I've forgotten now, something really, you know, beyond. Most people don't believe it when you tell them. So I guess my point is I think those decisions as to what to do with the transportation system should reside within the states, and of course it has to be coordinated with the federal government because we've got a national highways system. But I'd like to see most of those decisions handled by the governors, the legislatures, the mayors, the city councils and the county people. By the way, I'm sorry to bore you with this, the congressman from Alaska, this is just fact. They earmarked some money for a county in Florida, I'm pretty sure it was Orange County, Florida. The county supervisor said we don't want to spend it on that project, it has some environmental concerns. And then the congressman said you'd better spend it on that or you won't get any more money. ... I go back to the 9 percent and I go back to the standing of the Republican Party. You can't do those kinds of things.

Trib: Senator, I just spent the last several months in Pakistan and Afghanistan with the U.S. troops along the border. I heard repeatedly, I was told there are hundreds if not thousands of insurgents coming across that border and attacking the U.S., Afghan and NATO troops. How would you respond to that? What is your solution to that problem?

McCain: It's interesting you mention that. I met the NATO ambassador from Pakistan to the United States this morning, a very interesting person who also spent time in prison himself for his political stance. The situation in Afghanistan is very, very tough today, and it will remain tough for quite a period of time. And one of the major areas of concern is generated by what goes on in Pakistan. Afghanistan, of course, Karzai is not effective as we want him to be. There's corruption, there's a number of issues concerning Afghanistan. But in Pakistan, as we know, Faustian bargains have been entered into with groups along the Pakistan, Afghan border, Waziristan, etc. And it has now become a safe haven for Taliban and others. So this is going to be a very difficult situation, and I don't have to tell you again, because you have been there most recently, the instance of violence attacks, etc., continue to go up, particularly in those areas. I think there's a whole lot of things that need to be done. We can talk about the NATO command structure, the relationships between the different militaries and we can talk about a number of things, but a lot of it is going to depend on our relationship with Pakistan. And they haven't sorted that out yet, as you know. What's going to happen with Musharraf, the reappointment of the judges... . And as much as I respect the country of Pakistan, a lot of times the parties are identified with individuals rather than anything else. I'm insulting your intelligence by reminding you of all these things. I think it's going to require a lot of diplomacy, it's going to require a lot of hard work, it's going to require a lot of ideological work and it's going to require a lot of economic diplomatic intelligence and others, including human intelligence. So I guess my answer to you is the reports you are getting are correct, and we're going to have to try as well as we can to work as closely as we can (with) the Pakistani government. We have to not only appeal to their better angels of their nature, but we also have to appeal to them to recognize that their national security interests over time are at stake here. If the Taliban succeeds in Afghanistan, sooner or later it's going to have a significant -- a greater influence on the situation in Pakistan as well. I think, you know, sometimes things happen in history that change the whole course of history. I think the assassination of Benazir Bhutto was a tragic event not only from a personal standpoint but it threw everything into a -- a tumultuous situation which they still haven't sorted out, as you well know. And I'm sorry that's a long answer, but I didn't cover nearly all of the challenge we face in the Afghan, Pakistan situation. And I wonder, given the time you spent there, whether you disagree with that assessment, just out of curiosity.

Trib: Some have talked also about setting up, like, coordination between Afghanistan and Pakistan, having direct links between villages, you know things like that, along the border especially between the U.S., Afghanistan and Pakistan.

McCain: I think so, since the Taliban and others do not respect borders. I think if there is some good news, I think that there is a glimmer of improving relationship between Karzai and the Pakistanis. There was a personal animosity between Musharraf and Karzai, as you know, that also complicated it a bit. It's very, very tough.

Trib: Senator, with Iraqi leaders now calling for a timetable for U.S. troop withdrawals ...

McCain: Actually the Iraqis are not. The Iraqis widely reported as short a time ago as a couple of weeks ago that there would be no status of forces agreement, and Maliki would say that, and it got headlines, and of course it turned out not to be true. I met recently with the ... foreign minister and the president, both of them share my views completely. Americans will withdraw. It will be dictated by events on the ground, by the success that we've made and that success has been significant. but it's still fragile. ... Al-Qaida and other Shiite militias, other former Bathists, those elements have been knocked back on their heels (but) they are not defeated. So ... despite what you may see or hear, the facts are that this will be dictated, and since we are succeeding we will be able to withdraw and it will be dictated by the facts on the ground. And they still agree that if you set an artificial date for withdrawal, the way that Sen. Obama wanted to do, then we will have a resurgence of the fighting and the various factions within Iraq, Iranian influence will increase and we still risk a wider war. The benefits of success are reduced Iranian influence, a functioning, not great, but functioning Iraqi government and military, and a stable U.S. ally in the region. The security arrangements will be worked out between two sovereign countries. So as I say, I just met with the president of Iraq and with the foreign minister and both of them, and I know that (Gen.) Petraeus and (Ambassador) Crocker are saying the same things, and Maliki will too. So let me point out to you again, Sen. Obama said the surge would not work, he opposed the surge, up until very recently he said that it completely failed. Now maybe that's because he hadn't been there in 900 days, maybe that's because he never asked for a single sit-down meeting with Gen. Petraeus. Never asked for one, nor received one. But Sen. Obama is now going to Iraq as he has announced and I'll be very interested in seeing what he has to say ... upon his return.

Trib: Senator, in the past you've labeled Iran an aggressive and radical foe of the U.S. and our regional allies. You had just mentioned Iran, but what would you do to limit their influence?

McCain: I would join with other nations and they are showing a strong willingness to do so, particular President Sarkozy and also Prime Minister Brown as well as Chancellor Merkel to impose meaningful, impactful sanctions on the Iranians, diplomatic, trade, economic and others. The Iranians despite their oil wells have a very weak economy, showing again tha, that governments matter. So I and the president had conversations with Sarkozy and our other European allies and I'm sure it will be a subject at the G-8 meetings. Now, we all know that Russia and China, particularly Russia, has blocked significant measures to be taken. And that's why I think we have to have this kind of league of democracies, as I called it, that can act in concert and not only address this issue but others like Darfur and many others that are unfortunately challenges to everything we stand for and believe in. So I think we can do that, but I also have to tell you at the end of the day none of us, none of us can allow a second Holocaust. None of us. And it's unfortunate that the president of Iran continues to voice his nation's stated policy as quote "wiping Israel off the map," or calling Israel a quote stinking corpse or those other things. So but I think there's a lot of measures we can take in concert with other countries that I think can beneficially affect Iranian behavior.

Trib: Senator, about Medicare, I know that there's a lot of concern too about the possibility that the program may go bankrupt within the next decade or so. I know that you've talked about perhaps balancing the budget and making some steps and arrangements and that sort of thing, and I wonder if those cuts are to be made at the expense of Medicare. And I also wonder if there is a Medicare, is there a future for Medicare in your presidency?

McCain: Yes. No, there will not be cuts. Yes, there will be Medicare in the future. It's obviously a safety net that we have an obligation as a government to our society. The problem with Medicare is the health care costs, the skyrocketing costs of health care, which then is reflected by increases in Medicare costs and every other health care cost in America. So we have to get health care under control as far as the costs are concerned. We have the highest-quality health care in the world in the United States of America. The problem is affordability and availability, and that's why we are going to have to try to keep government out of running health care in America, and we are going to have to make various reforms. Social Security, as we talked about at the beginning of our conversation, is a major, major challenge. It pales in comparison to Medicare as far as unfunded liability is concerned. I believe this is right, that David Walker, the former head of the Government Accountability Office, said the unfunded liability, i.e. debt of Social Security, is $6 trillion. I believe he also said that Medicare was around $40 trillion. It's a huge difference. Medicare is the elephant in the room and we are going to have to reform it.

Trib: I'm based in Cairo, Egypt, and there's a lot of anti-American sentiment in the region. I travel a lot around the region. What would you do to improve it? Or do you think it needs improving?

McCain: There are many things that I could do, but I think you know from where you are based that probably major -- one of the major -- let me say the major issue in many respects in that part of the world is the Israeli-Palestinian issue. And unfortunately from time to time people who are dictators of countries use the Israeli-Palestinian issue as a way to divert from the real problems with governing and the lack of progress in many areas. I would get personally engaged in the process. I would find the best qualified people I know to be permanently there. I would make sure that everybody knows that we expect an outcome and that people in the region expect an outcome, and that we will achieve a successful resolution of these very difficult issues. They may have to be done step by step, and it may have to be one thing after another. As you know, President Clinton tried at Camp David to have an all-encompassing settlement, and by the way I respect very much President Clinton's effort and his knowledge of this issue. He knows it in detail. But that didn't succeed. So we may have to do it one step at a time. And among many other issues, by the way being from the west I have to throw in as you know water, water. Water is going to be as precious as oil someday. Not only in the Middle East. So that's just one of the issues that's going to have to be resolved. But with the highest priority, I would be personally engaged and I would have the smartest and most respected people I know engaged in the process. And I do believe it affects the entire region.

Trib: What was the purpose of your recent trip to Colombia and did you accomplish what you hoped to accomplish?

McCain: Well, I'm happy to tell you that I orchestrated the rescue of those hostages. I thought it was important, I believe they are a valuable ally. They are very important in the hard struggle against the drug issue. I think that a free trade agreement that the speaker has pulled off the table is very important to send a signal in the hemisphere. I think that we are engaged in a common struggle against the drug cartels and that's one of the reasons why I went to Mexico as well. And I'm happy to tell you I think we've got a president in Mexico in the case of Calderon who really is committed. And I don't have to tell you the terrible things that are happening in border towns. I mean the unspeakable cruelty as these cartels try to do everything they can to maintain their control. And this Merida initiative that was just concluded with Mexico I think is maybe a signal change in our relationship and our combined efforts, and they've got a huge corruption problem, let's face it. Drugs corrupt, money corrupts, but I do believe that the Colombian government coming from nearly a failed state to where it is today is pretty remarkable progress and I wanted to show my appreciation. But also the challenge that continues to lie ahead of us. As far as Mexico, I think it's obvious, our nearest neighbor. I come from a border state, I think Canada and Mexico relations are very important with the United States and so I thought it was appropriate to do so.

Trib: 
But was it meant to highlight your expertise in foreign affairs?

McCain: No. I think it was meant to convey to them my understanding and my commitment to working together with them, conveyed to the American people that I am aware, appreciate, understand and am committed to the close relations between our two nearest neighbors to also show the American people that I am ready to serve. And I hope that I'll be able to do that in the days and weeks, the 119 days, who is counting, remaining between now and ...

Trib: 
Senator, two quick questions. Back to Iran for a second, Ahmadinejad today challenged you to a debate. Is that something you can put on your schedule?

McCain: Do you think that Sen. Obama will join us? I've been challenging him to town hall meetings.

Trib: I just wondered if that was going to be part of your schedule.

McCain: Well, you know, the problem with sitting down with someone like Ahmadinejad is you then give that individual legitimacy. Now when Nixon went to China, it was after every "t" was crossed and every "I" was dotted. Whenever we have sat down with leaders there is a predetermined outcome. If you sat down with Ahmadinejad today, all he would do is go through a rant, which would be anti-Israeli, anti-American, etc. And that would then somehow in his view anyway enhance his role in the world -- on the world stage. Now if Ahmadinejad said at the end of this meeting, this debate we are having I'm then going to declare that we will respect the right of the state of Israel to exist, I'll sit down with him tomorrow. OK? But there's a huge difference there. And there's not -- and by the way we have communications. Ambassador Crocker in Baghdad has met with the Iranian ambassador, there's plenty of ways to communicate nowadays, my dear friends. But you've got to be careful, legitimacy you give people who state that their policy is the extermination of one of their neighbors. You see what I mean? So yes, I only have one precondition to sit down with Ahmadinejad and that is at the end of the meeting he will say my country will recognize and take no steps to harm the state of Israel, which is a freely democratic, freely elected government and nation. And I'll respect its right to exist, and I'll negotiate with them. That's when I do that. But that's interesting, I didn't know he had -- he had issued that challenge.

Trib: It is out there for you. The other question is when you ran for president in 2000, although the Internet was around because it was invented by then, but YouTube, 24 hours news cycle, every word is parsed that you said was not part of the culture (of) running forpPresident. What is that like for you know? I mean everything that you say, everything that Obama says, your surrogates say ...

McCain: I don't know how much the American people pay attention to all that. But I do know that for someone like me who believes in access to media and free flowing conversations and you know a lot of -- because I think it's important for people to understand the whole philosophy that I have, and you can't do it in sound bites, and you can't do it in speeches. But I will say something occasionally that maybe I misspeak or is taken out of context and I'm not complaining, don't get me wrong, I am not complaining. For me to complain is just well, I mean it's just self-serving for one, and it doesn't do any good, number two. So I think sometimes it may be a bit harmful to me, or you know maybe give ammunition to -- but having said all that, every town hall meeting I go to they don't ask what Charlie Black said, or what somebody else said, you know what they are talking about? They are talking about keeping their jobs, keeping their homes, the price of a gallon of gas, that's what is on their minds. Not this -- all this process stuff about you know who said and what said, and what adviser said this or that. But I'll tell you again, they are as upset and as concerned in all the years that I have been in elected office and they want to know not what some adviser said or what misspeak I may have said, something the Lexington project or the project Lexington or whatever it might be, but what they want to know is why is it that every time I got to the gas station I have to pay more? I'm on fixed income, why is it that I have, I can't get health insurance for my aunt who has a chronic disease? Why is it? I mean, that's what is on their minds and that's why I do the town hall meetings. And by the way, could I just mention also, I asked Sen. Obama to engage in these town hall meetings. He has refused to do so. I admire and respect Sen. Obama, but I still think one of the most effective ways to communicate with the American people. I spoke to LULAC today, he's speaking to LULAC today. Why didn't just the both of us stand up on the stage and have the people in the audience stand up and say how are you going to fix the border? How are you going to -- you know, and that way they would have an opportunity and some of this stuff that you are talking about would be avoided, because there we are. And so I'll continue to hope that he will do it. Yes?

Trib: You mentioned gridlock earlier. There is a chance that you could inherit a more Democratic Congress than there is right now. How ...

McCain: I would never contemplate such a thing.

Trib: Well, there is a possibility. How are you going to balance these ...

McCain: I know these people very well. I've worked with them for years. I've reached across the aisle to my favorite Democrat, Joe Lieberman, Russ Feingold, Ted Kennedy, I know these people and I've worked with them. Bryron Dorgan on the Indian Affairs Committee, Carl Levin on the Arms Services Committee. I know how to work with them. I know how to sit down with them and get things done. And that's been my practice and that's -- as long as there are 60 votes required in the Senate that's what you have to do. I mean there's no choice. So it makes for a lot of collegiality that otherwise wouldn't exist. So I know how to work with them, and I know how to say look, come on now, we all know Social Security is broken. Now here is what -- let's put everything on the table and when we walk out of here, Harry, and Speaker Pelosi, and all the others, I'll give you all the credit. I'll give you all the credit, and maybe we'll see a little tick up in that 9 percent approval rating of Congress. Politicians crave approval. That's -- you know that's what we do. And not all of us are motivated by the most patriotic reasons, I will freely admit. But we do crave approval and we seek it, because that's our job to get things done. And right now there's nothing done, so therefore the ratings are down and there's a very strong feeling in America. So I know how to sit down with them, and I think, believe it or not, the time is really ripe for it, to be able to walk out with them and stand there, wherever it is. I'll go up to the Hill and stand there with them and say we've got a fix for Social Security, my friends. All you young people that are working today that never received benefits from your taxes are going to get them, you are going to get the benefits. Maybe there's going to be some changes, but at least you are going to get them.

Trib: Senator, what's your fix for the price of oil? You've advocated the gasoline, the gasoline tax moratorium, but gasoline just tracks the price of oil. In your view,what's causing the price of oil, because there's been a lot of debate, well how would you fix that?

McCain: There's always speculators, by the way, and they will take advantage. They are not my favorite group of Americans, but the fact is that the fundamental issue is that there are growing economies, particularly India and China, but other countries, Brazil, others, although Brazil has done a good job in their energy independence effort, but that are growing demands on a finite resource, and that's oil. And the Russian oil minister not long ago predicted it would be as high as $200 a barrel. I understand it's gone down today, but so we've got to,in my view, do offshore drilling if the states agree. If the states agree, we should drill offshore. Now in Florida, Gov. Crist just said they ought to do it. In California ..., Gov. Schwarzenegger said no. So it should be up to the states, but the federal government shouldn't be saying it. So we should do the offshore oil exploration that's very necessary, and then as I started out in the beginning of our conversation, wind, solar, tide, nuclear, hybrid cars, hydrogen, batteries, it's going to have to be 1,000 flowers bloom. I met two guys from California not too long ago that have an electric car. The good news is it's an electric car, the bad news is it costs $100,000. Their next generation is going to be $60,000. And right now we've got GM placing all their bets on the Volt. Now the technology isn't quite there yet but they've placed their bets on that and I am convinced, and by the way you know on the gas tax holiday if I could just say -- I met a guy not long ago that owns two trucks. He told me that he's probably going to go out of business. And he might not have to go out of business quite so quickly and he may not at all if he was relieved of the 25 1/2-cent tax that he pays on a gallon of diesel. Now it's easy for someone who resides in Georgetown and is driven to work in a limousine to say that, but I just wanted to give them a little break. I didn't claim it was the answer. I didn't claim that it was the solution to our energy problems. But I did claim that they needed a little bit of a break. So, and the thing about the offshore drilling if I could just mention it again, or exploration again, is that the futures markets are based on predictions. And I believe that if we said, we're really going to go after our oil and gas reserves, it would not be a long-term solution but it would have a temporary and sometime beneficial effect on the price of a barrel of oil. So I guess in summary, I know America can do it. I know America can do it. And by the way on that business of the electric car, how much did a cell phone cost when it first was brand new? A thousand bucks. Now they're giving them away. The same thing can happen with a battery-powered automobile in my view. Go ahead.

Trib: Do you think that the current administration has made a mistake by not doing more to strengthen the dollar? Because that's another thing that people point to as far as the ...

Trib: I'd like to strengthen the dollar. I think it's important we strengthen the dollar. I think it's important we talk it up. But I also can tell you that we are in a spiral when we transfer $400 (billion) or $500 (billion), how many hundreds of billions of dollars overseas to purchase foreign oil. And we enlarge the debt, we weaken our economy, the dollar weakens and then the price of a barrel of oil goes up. This is s spiral, my friends. And you don't have to be -- have a Ph.D. It's this huge transfer of wealth. It's historic in the view of many people. This historic transfer of hundreds of billions of dollars to countries that don't like us very much and some of it ends up in the hands of terrorist organizations. So I have to tell you that I want the dollar strengthened. It's very important that we strengthen it. It's having all kinds of unpredicted as well as predicted impacts of a weakened dollar. But I think the best measure we can take to strengthen the dollar is to declare our independence, our mission to independence on foreign oil. Yes, sir.

Trib: I take it then that it's not -- you're not in favor of having the ownership of U.S. companies continue to transfer overseas then because of the low dollar ...

McCain: I believe that the reason why a lot of companies and businesses move overseas is because of the corporate tax, which is 35 percent, the second highest in the world. Right now, Ireland, which still has a strong economy and one of the economic miracles of the last decade or 20 years, they have 11 percent business tax, corporate tax. We have 35, which is the second highest in the world, the highest being Japan. How are you going, I mean you're the head of the business and you've got a choice of locating in Ireland or the United States of America. And you've got "X" amount of dollars that you're going to hire people and do all the things you can do. Clearly, I think the corporate tax or the business tax is a real big factor.

Trib: If the mortgage crisis and the credit crisis continues into a McCain administration, would you be, look for a Resolution Trust Corporation-type of bailout or anything like that?

McCain: I'd be open to anything that seems reasonable in order to get us a floor on the value of homes in America today. I'd like to give you a little straight talk. We've got to get that floor so that we can start having an improving economy. But I also ...

Trib: When do you think we'll get that?

McCain: What's that?

Trib: 
When do you think we'll get that?

McCain: If I knew that, I would be a very, very wealthy man. Some time in the future. I think the important thing is that we passed this legislation even though I did not like some parts of it. If I'd have had my way and still if I have my way, we would put that responsibility in the hands of the homeowner. That the homeowner can go down and get a 30-year FHA-guaranteed loan at the new value of the house and then after appreciation, if that homeowner sells 10 per -- ah, one-third, one-third, one-third of the profits go to the federal government and the lender and the homeowner. Because I worry with this proposal that's being passed by the Senate that the lender will use that as a way to get rid of their most risky loans. But it's still - the government has to act and intervene. And I talk to people all the time about this, whether Wall Street or whether they're homeowners, no matter who they are. And it's obvious that we need to take this action. That's why I believe that we need to do, to pass the legislation pending before Congress even though I have problems with it. And we may have to take additional measures. Because our economy is in serious trouble today and Americans are hurting.

Trib: Are we in a recession now in your opinion?

McCain: Of course, I believe that we're in a recession, but the important thing, you know, people sit around the kitchen table at night saying how are we going to make the mortgage payment? They're not saying, hey, you think we're in a recession? Or just, this is an economic dip, you know, what do you think we're - they're saying how are we going to make our payment this month? How are we going to stay in our home? So and so just lost his job. So that really is -- and I don't mean to be disrespectful of your question, I apologize if I was. But I think, yeah, I'd say we're, certainly in the minds of millions and millions of Americans, we are in a quote recession.

Trib: Could you just clarify something for me Senator? One of the first things you said was that more taxes would do a lot of damage to the country. But if I read your health insurance proposal correctly, it would do away with the employer tax exemptions, which I believe that by definition would mean that all of us would have to pay taxes on health benefits.

McCain: Well if the employer wants to maintain that relationship they can, but then we also would have the individual receive a $5,000 refundable tax credit.

Trib: But we would still be taxed on our health benefits, correct?

McCain: You would receive a $5,000 -- if you chose to have the employer-provided benefits you could maintain that. If you choose to, you can have a $5,000 refundable tax credit so that you go across state lines and get whatever insurance of your choice, and right now you can't do that and you need to be able to go across state lines. It's a whole package of proposals that I'd be glad to send you the details of it.

Trib: Is it time to take our troops out of Germany and Korea and use them for other things ... placing them in Iraq and Afghanistan?

McCain: No, I don't think so. I think we've cut way, way back on our troop presence in Europe. As you know, troops from Germany are going to Iraq and Afghanistan. They're being deployed from there as well. I have every belief that China will emerge as a superpower in a peaceful way, at least, I certainly have that expectation. But I think most of our allies in Asia would tell you that an American military presence in the region is a stabilizing factor. So no, I wouldn't do that at this time.

Trib: There are a lot of people in this state, going back to what you said about jobs and the corporate tax, who blame free trade agreements like NAFTA and CAFTA. Pennsylvania and Ohio, it's a huge issue, played prominently in the Democratic primary here. What do you say to those voters -- about free trade agreements?

McCain: Well, I'll try to assure them that, one, I would not allow products into this country that would be detrimental to health. I would make sure that we use the WTO or other provisions of agreements to make sure that they are not taking advantage of us, engaging in unfair practices and I would also try to make sure that they understand the lessons of history, Mr. Smoot and Mr. Holly Tariffs Act and others measures taken in 1930 sent this nation from a recession into the deepest Depression in modern time. I would also try to point out the jobs that have been created and most importantly I would point out that we will implement, institute and implement retraining and education programs for workers so that they can be part of this information technology revolution, which is worldwide and global. And there are good jobs in green technologies and our mission to become energy independent will create hundreds, millions of jobs. Just in the nuclear power, building 45 nuclear power plans alone will be 700,000 jobs. So I will assure them that we will provide them with the education and training programs that are necessary, including those for the displaced worker and I will even subsidize the salary of a highly paid worker who has to take a lower-paid job while they're undergoing re-education and training programs. I will assure them of all of those things. And, again, it's a matter of principle, my friend. It's a matter of principle. It would be easy from time to time in my political career to embrace positions which may be popular at the time whether it be the surge in Iraq, when everybody was against it and I said we need additional troops, even though that was the most unpopular thing you could do at the time. Or whether it be -- lead on immigration reform, which I knew was not popular with the Republican base at that time. And I know from history that free trade -- or excuse me, that isolationism and protectionism have incredibly detrimental and damaging effects both short-term and long-term. There are many that belief that protectionism and isolationism was a major contributor to World War II. I won't go that far. But I will allege that certainly it sent us from a recession into a depression. I'm not going to do that to the American people. So I have to tell them, I do what I believe is right and if that means - it's like raising taxes. Sen. Obama wants to raise taxes. You want to raise taxes, I'm not your guy.

Trib: How long are we going to stay in Iraq? I mean is it going to be like Japan or South Korea?

McCain: I think that's between our two countries, but I think the facts on the ground are that we are succeeding, and we will be able to withdraw, and we will withdraw with honor and victory. And we will not have a defeated military on our hands, and we won't have a wide -- risk of a wider war. And we won't have all the things that go along with defeat. So we will be withdrawing because we've succeeded. In all classic conflicts of this nature, you get the security environment established, then the government starts functioning effectively, then the institutions of society are able to proceed, and then you withdraw. I mean it wasn't invented in Iraq. It wasn't -- when I supported the surge and said we've got to do it, it wasn't because I invented it, it's because I studied history. So we will withdraw, and we will withdraw with honor and victory, and we won't have to go back.

Trib: But do you foresee a long-term presence beyond --

McCain: I think that's a relationship between the United States Government and Iraq. In Kuwait after the first Gulf War, we established a base there. They thought it was in their national security interests, we decided it was in our national security interests. In the case of Saudi Arabia, they decided that we should leave because of their internal political situation in Saudi Arabia. So what will be done is two sovereign nations will sit down together and decide what is in the best national security interests of both nations.

Trib: But what would be your position on that?

McCain: My position is that we would do what's in the national security interests of both nations. That would be my position.

Trib: Senator, you had called the situation in Afghanistan tough and you said that any failure there could lead -- could have dire consequences for the NATO alliance. Beyond Pakistan, what do you think it takes for the U.S. to succeed there? Is more troops the answer?

McCain: I think there is a whole lot of challenges that we face. One of them is whether we succeed or not in Iraq. I think that has a direct impact on the region. But I also believe that the Karzai government being more effective, the Pakistan situation as you and I discussed, the economic progress, again this is one of these situations where you've got to maintain the security environment, but then you've got to have the progress where people will have a better life to look forward to. And one of the failures, because of corruption, has been that we haven't made the progress economically in some of these parts of Iraq and we had this window of opportunity and it wasn't as well used as perhaps it could have. But again, I can't tell you that there's one solution to it with the struggle military, diplomatic, intelligence, economic, it's all of one and yet it has various aspects. And I just finally would say, and I'm sorry for some wrong answers, but we are in this with other nations. That's important. And I'm glad that Sarkozy is sending additional French troops over there. I'm glad that many of our allies, I wish more of them and I wish the rules of engagement for some of them were better and a lot of things. But the fact is this is a -- this is a lot of nations that are in this in a common interest.

Trib: Do you think more troops should -- do you think -- some of the military have called for more additional troops ...

McCain: I think yes, and I'd love to see our allies to contribute more in a broad variety of ways. I'd love to see that. And we may have to send additional troops. As you know, they just extended the marine unit there by an additional 30 days. And I think they had -- they did that very reluctantly. Yes?

Trib: Senator, Sen. Obama has indicated that he would be open to having members of the Republican Party on his Cabinet. Is that something that would be -- does party preclude? Do you have any -- maybe not a specific person, but a type of person that you could see sitting on that Cabinet?

McCain: The one thing the American people want today is for us to work together. That's the frustration, that's their intense frustration is that we seem to be -- have our party first. And I'll put my country first. That's what I say in every speech. I put my country first, and that means including Democrats, Libertarians, vegetarians, whoever it is that take part, and I also would ask people who have been very successful. I'd like to ask John Chambers to come and work for $1 a year. I'd like to ask a lot of these people who have achieved enormous success to come and serve their country, and that will be an example to younger Americans as well.

Trib: Do you think it's a sign of a stronger leader if they are willing to have people that are at their table, that are part of their administration, that aren't always going to say yes to them? I mean is that something that you are comfortable with?

McCain: Oh, I think it's very important. I think the hardest thing for any President is to get unvarnished opinions from the people and unfiltered. That's the hardest thing. I think it's not the hardest, but it's one of them. It's one of the very difficult things just to make sure you are getting the benefit of the expertise and knowledge of a lot of people rather than hearing what you want to hear.

Trib: Senator, you've often said you are older than dirt. And you would be the oldest person ever sworn in as president. What can you do to assure people that you are not too old to be president?

McCain: I think it's a time when America needs experience and knowledge and judgment. America needs that now because of the challenges we face. I've served my country all my adult life. I know how to serve. I have the experience and the knowledge and the background to make the correct judgments. I don't need any on the job training, I don't need any preparation. I need to get smart people around me, but obviously I have nothing but dumb people around me now. No. I'm ready, and they need somebody who is ready, and they need somebody who has proven leadership qualities. And I believe that I am qualified. Yes?

Trib: For the last 20 years we've gone through a series of what I call balloon and bust cycles. There was the real estate boom that led to the savings and loan crisis, and then we had the technology bubble that caused the recession or close to one, and now we are in the mortgage and credit crisis. What kind of failures or failure to regulation? What failure is allowing these things to happen, because they are very unhealthy?

McCain: There is failures that are associated with almost every one of them that I think that a long view is that we have created 46 million jobs in America since 19 -- since 1982. And so we have experienced great prosperity. That's of no consolation for those people that were caught up in the savings and loan crisis, people who were caught up in the tech bubble, all of that stuff. And so I think that we have to learn the lessons, we have to pay attention to those who warn us about impending problems, and we have to make sure that any economic problems that we have are better anticipated. I think the best way to do that is make sure that we have great transparency. Transparency is the first step, and then where oversight is necessary is the second step. None of us ever anticipated that the subprime lending crisis would affect a town in Norway that lost "X" millions of dollars because they had investments that were affected by it. And the global economy is something we have to make adjustments to, and as rapidly as possible. Now the savings and loan crisis was bred by other problems in excessive capitalism and so was the dot-com bubble. But each one of those we have to learn, and our lesson is that we have to do a better job of anticipating these problems. And that means to start with greater transparency so we know what's going on in a global economy. And now the global economy travels at the speed of light, and so that is a new dimension to a global economy and one that we're going to have to try to anticipate better than we have in the past.

Trib: Senator, what would distinguish the McCain administration from the current Bush administration?

McCain: Climate change, spending, we wouldn't torture a single person in our custody, close Guantanamo Bay. There -- those are some of the major differences. Climate change is real in my view, and we have to act in my view to address it. Spending got completely out of control, as I said in the beginning of our conversation. It's not revenues that was the problem, it was spending. It was the dramatic increase in the size of government. It gave us massive deficits and caused the cycle of difficulties and challenges that we are facing. I begged them to -- I didn't beg them, I urgently recommended that they veto the spending bills that came across the president's desk. And they didn't, they didn't. And that I think is a very, very heavy price we're paying for allowing spending to get completely out of control.

Trib: How is your vice presidential search coming?

McCain: Moving down along in the process. Now you are going to mention Tom Ridge. Every place I go to we mention the name, and just let me say on the subject of Tom Ridge, he's a great American, he's a tremendous leader, he's an old and dear friend, and he has a great place in America's future and that of our party. But we are not mentioning anybody's name, it's just not appropriate, nor is it helpful to the person or the process.

Trib: Do you feel pressured to pick a woman or a minority vice president?

McCain: No, frankly, I hadn't thought about that. I ...

Trib: What kind of a vice president do you want?

McCain: 
Someone who shares my priorities and my principles. And also obviously who is ready to take my place at a moment's -- you know, immediately.

Trib: I think we've got time for about two more questions. And one of them I'm going to ask. So somebody needs to jump in, or I'll ask two. Immigration and border security, big concerns for us, big concerns for all Americans. What are you going to do about it?

McCain: Twice we brought up immigration reform. As you know, Sen. Kennedy and I, and twice it failed. And it failed because Americans did not have confidence that we would secure the borders. And there was some legitimacy to that concern because in 1986 we passed a law that gave amnesty to a couple of million people and we said we'd secure the borders. We didn't. Our borders have to be secured not only because of illegal immigration but because of drugs. As we have seen, the influence and inflow of drugs into our country is a devastating one. So we need to secure the borders first, but we need a comprehensive approach to the problem, and that means a temporary worker program that is associated with -- that is associated with a fundamental principle of this tamper-proof biometric documents. We have the technology for that. And again, that would be with an electronic employment verification system. When that word went around the world that the only way you can get a job in the United States of America is if you have the biometric tamper-proof documents, then that will dry up a lot of the supply that's coming in where they can get jobs. And they will not -- that will have a beneficial effect. And then we have to address the issue of the 12 million people who are in this country illegally. Two million of them, according to Chertoff, have committed crimes. They've got to be rounded up, using every means as possible, and deported. With the others we have to have a humane and compassionate approach to this issue, and the principle has to be that no one who waited legally or came legally should have any priority taken over them. In other words, they have to be first in line because they acted legally. But it still can be done in a humane and compassionate fashion, and addressed in that fashion as well. We are a Judeo-Christian-valued nation, and we can address that issue in that fashion. Today some person was picked up this morning, worked all day long for someone, and at the end of the day the guy said I'm not paying you. If you don't like it, turn me in. There's abuses of people's rights that are -- because they are human beings -- that are taking place all the time. That side of it is something when you see the activities of the coyotes, when you see the things that are done, it's a humanitarian issue as well as all of the others. But we can secure our borders. We can do that with electronic devices, with virtual fences, with sensors and walls in populated areas.

Trib: Why haven't we done it so far? I mean we've had seven years since our borders were breached in a terrorist way.

McCain: Because we've failed, we've failed as a government to do it. It's a federal failure. It's federal responsibility to secure our borders. So now you have sanctuary cities and you have this and you have that, and all the states and towns and cities are all in conflict with one another as a direct result of our failure to carry out a federal responsibility, 9 percent approval rating.

Trib: Everybody who runs for president, and everybody that we have interviewed in this room talks about how the other guy has failed and they are going to get in and change things. And it's all going to be better and they give us a litany of all the issues that they think -- and then four years later, or eight years later we are back hearing the same thing. Why should anybody who is going to vote in this election believe either candidate, both of whom are in the Senate, both of whom are part of the process, both of whom have been there through at least part of the last four years, that either of you gentlemen are going to change anything?

McCain: Examine my record. Examine my record for credibility. Sen. Obama has the most extreme voting record of anyone in the Senate. I have a record of reaching across the aisle and working together and getting things done. I mean this -- but also Americans not only want to examine your record, they want to have -- and that's important, in fact more importantly, they want to know what you are going to do to resolve these issues. But having a record is important. I still think Americans want hope, they want confidence in the future, they believe ... what they want to believe, and I believe it is true that America's best days are ahead of us. We've faced tough times in the past, we can overcome them, and they want a clear plan of action and I'm trying to provide that. And I believe that I am. But they also want to know what you've done for them. Most importantly, they want to know what you are going to do for them. I think it's a combination of both. And I admire and respect Sen. Obama, he is a great speaker, he has motivated people all over America, and I respect and admire him. We just have stark differences in how we approach the challenges that we face.

Trib: Is he the candidate that you are happy to run against in this election?

McCain: No, I -- you know, I had no role in that process, and I respect the process that the Democratic Party went through. I mean it's nothing I could affect in any way that I know of.

Trib: But of all the candidates you could have run against, is he the one you'd rather ...

McCain: No, no, I had no choice. I had no choice in the matter, and I obviously had no -- took no position. I respect Sen. Clinton, I know her and I've worked with her in the Senate. I respect Sen. Obama. I respect all of those who are willing to go through this tough process. And Americans I think want a respectful candidate. But obviously it's time for me to go. I say thank you for spending this time with me.

Trib: Well, we appreciate you spending the time with us.

McCain: I thank you. It's a real pleasure to be with you.

Trib: It was great to have you.

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